REMINDERS:
Take this EEE quiz on information literacy / academic honesty. I don't care if you did it earlier this year; do it again.
Read the first half of the Sophocles version of Antigone (59-90). I don't recommend the introduction to the play on 39-53, but you might find the introduction to Greek theater on 13-30 pretty helpful.
Answer the Hart study question that was assigned to your row. Post your answer as a comment reply to this message so I know the blog is working for you... if you're having any problems getting the blog to work, please email the listserv or see me in office hours. I would appreciate that blog homework be posted the afternoon/night after class, or sometime the next day, rather than the morning before the next lecture. It's more helpful to the rest of the class that way.
I also assigned one of you to ask me a question at the start of Wednesday's class about the Antigone reading, and another one of you to ask me a question about Hart's Wednesday lecture. So don't forget.
Send a test message to the listserv (rosie-s09@classes.uci.edu) so I know it's working for you. To kill two birds with one stone, make your comment a question/clarification/confusion about the syllabus.
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What are Antigone's first words and how do they situate her?
ReplyDeleteher first words are "My own flesh and blood..." then she goes on telling her sister Ismene about her and their family's grief imposed on them by Zeus. She does not come off as whiny or a victim of fate, but rather as a believer and acceptor of faith. and she accepts it as a decree from Zeus (the gods). her words thus place her in a situation in which she is a sister, a griever, and a faithful believer/follower of the gods.
oh yeah, my name doesn't show, fyi v5Asor= Rosa V
ReplyDeleteHey everyone...just checking to see if this works
ReplyDeleteHow does Creon make his case for exposing Polynices on p.68?
ReplyDeleteCreon,now king of Thebes, positions himself on the side of the city. He deems those who defend his country (Eteocles) his friends, "truer than blood," and "prize" them in both life and death. But for those who betray the country (Polynices), he has forbade the city to mourn for or bury them in death. Creon states, "Remember this: our country is our safety." He sends a message to his followers that anyone upsetting this order will face consequences. In the case of Polynices, he doesn't legally receive a proper burial.
5. What are Antigone’s first words and how do they situate her?
ReplyDeleteAntigone's first words are "My own flesh and blood - dear sister, dear Ismene..."
These word situate Antigone as a member of a family with highest regards for blood ties above anything else. This sets the stage for later, as her value of the family precedes that of the law set by Creon. She accepts what has been set as the law, but chooses to defy it anyway because she sees it as unjust and unfair to the family circle. Here she pleads with another member of her flesh and blood - her sister - to help her in this endeavor to honor the dead blood kin member.
S.Q. 4
ReplyDeleteThe chorus is made up of elderly Thebian citizens, who at first seem to interrupt the play momentarily to simply announce main characters' entrances i.e. "But look, the king of the realm is coming" (line 173) or "Here is a dark sign from the gods...That young girl's Antigone!" (lines 417-419). They speak directly to the audience either clarifying, like their inclusion of the brothers' story before the actual play begins; transitioning, like the aforementioned announcing; or reflecting on a bigger picture, like the evaluation of man as a "terrible wonder" (line 377) before bringing in Antigone, the female culprit.
8. What does Antigone mean on p. 82 when she speaks of “great unwritten, unshakeable traditions?
ReplyDelete- Antigone means that the Gods have set certain guidelines to be followed, this infers the burying of her dead brother. It is a tradition to bury the dead, and not burying him is going against the rules of the Gods. Even though this tradition is never "set in stone," it is a will of the Gods.
How does Creon make his case for exposing Polynices on pg. 68?
ReplyDeleteCreon, who has inherited the position of king since his two brothers killed each other in battle, made a personal "sudden call to the old men summoned at one command". Upon his visit, he compliments the selected men for always being loyal to the crown and family and, in doing so, states his own new possession of the throne (considering the recent deaths of his two brothers who were at battle with each other). Creon continues on to what "make[s] our city great" and states his standards of "never stand[ing] silent, watching destruction march against our city...nor could [he] ever make that man a friend of mine who menaces our country". With this, the recently murdered Polynices is, quote-on-quote, justifiably disgraced by being left unburied because he "returned from exile, home to his father-city and the gods of his race...who thirsted to drink his kinsmen's blood and sell the rest to slavery".
8. What does Antigone mean on p. 82 when she speaks of “great unwritten, unshakeable traditions?
ReplyDeleteThis is when Antigone confesses to Creon that she has buried her brother. In her reference to the "great unwritten, unshakeable traditions" she refers to the duty she holds of being blood related to her brother. She believes no law of the land created by man can overcome the law of God and the laws that bind her to her brother. Relationships and the commitments one has for those relationships cannot be overridden by the laws of a "mere mortal." Antigone defies the civil law of the land and adheres to the familial ties and laws that have been existent forever.
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ReplyDelete3. Why must the dead be buried in this play? Why is burial so important?
ReplyDeleteBurial is so important in the play because it is a formal tradition for the dead. It is shameful for those who are not buried because they were considered dishonorable people or traitors to the city. Antigone says that a rumor has it that her brother is "to be left unwept, unburied, a lovely treasure for birds that scan the field and feast to their heart's content". His life and body do not get to be honored by people after he dies because he died miserably. On the other hand, because Eteocles "has been given full military honors, rightly so--Creon has laid him in the earth and he goes with glory down among the dead." (60) Burial is a form of respecting a dead person's past life and greatly contrasts those that do not receive a burial.
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ReplyDeleteStudy Question #5:
ReplyDeleteAntigone's first words are "My own flesh and blood-dear sister, dear Ismene/how many griefs our father Oedipus handed down!"
This situates her by showing her devotion to place her direct family above everything else. Throughout the play she runs into the major conflict of choosing between obeying the law and paying respects to her brother and properly burying him, she chooses to bury her brother because of the values she keeps true to that represent family ties. Antigone does not deny the fact that she puts her own blood first and later on in the story everyone else begins to realize this as well.
4. Watch the chorus. Who are they and what functions do they serve?
ReplyDeleteThe Chorus plays many different roles. They help the audience by; announcing the coming of a character onto the stage "Ismene's coming, weeping a sister's tears" (Line 594), generalizes the mood or tone of a certain section, "Numberless wonders terrible wonders walk the world but none the match for man-..." (Line 376-377), or to get the audience to think a certain way "Why think, this special session? Why this sudden call to the old men summoned at one command?" (Line 177-179). The Chorus gives clues to the audiences to help them understand and anticipate what has happened or what is going to happen.
8. Antigone is talking about the rights to life and life after death. She admits to Creon that she buried her brother. With out the proper burial, her brother Polynices can not go on to live with the gods. she says that Creon does not make the laws, and the the laws of the gods are higher than whatever he says. they may not be voiced or seen on an everyday level but they are real and must be followed over whatever Creon's laws may be.
ReplyDelete8. What does Antigone mean on p. 82 when she speaks of “great unwritten, unshakeable traditions"?
ReplyDeleteThe "great unwritten, unshakeable traditions" that Antigone mentions essentially refers to the unbreakable ties between blood relations. When she admitted that she did indeed knowingly break the law when she buried her brother, she justified that action by insisting that the laws of man cannot override the ties of blood. Also, Antigone makes the point that the laws of the gods override all laws of man and so unless Zeus himself told her that she was not allowed to bury her brother, then she would give Polynices the proper burial she believes he deserves.
3.
ReplyDeleteBurial is important because it give peace to the dead person and saves the citizens and the dead's relatives from curses. As the Sentry says, someone wanted to "lay the dead to rest and keep from getting cursed." Also, Creon has decided to not allow Polynices a burial because he considers him a traitor. Therefore, burial also dignifies the dead and if left unburied, it is a form of dishonor to the traditions as well as the dead person. That is why it is important to Antigone that both her brothers are burried.
7. How does Creon make his case for exposing Polynices on p.68?
ReplyDeleteCreon believes that one's patriotism is very important, and dying for one's country holds more merit than fleeing from battle. Creon establishes the idea that friendships made between countrymen are "truer than blood itself," which is why Polynices will not be buried and left out to be eaten by animals. Eteocles, Oedipus's son, dies in battle and is buried with honor. On the other hand, Eteocles' brother, Polynices, returned from exile and was accused of wanting to burn the city roof to roots and to "drink his kinsmen's blood and sell the rest to slavery" (225-226). This is the reason why Polynices cannot be buried; he will have his body left out for the birds and dogs to eat.
7. How does Creon make his case for exposing Polynices on p.68?
ReplyDeleteCreon justifies his decision to not give Polynices a burial by saying how he has returned from exile and only has the intention of cold-blooded murder. He says how Polynices' disloyalty against Thebes makes him a traitor and therefore unworthy of a proper burial that would allow him to enter the afterlife. As a result of his actions, Polynices' body must be left out to rot, "for the birds and dogs to tear, an obscenity for the citizens to behold"(230-231).
8. What does Antigone mean on p. 82 when she speaks of “great unwritten, unshakable traditions?
ReplyDeleteAntigone means that the burial of a body has been going on for as long as she can remember. A burial complete with the right rites allows the soul to enter easily into the Underworld which is what every family member or loved one wants for their deceased one.
Antigone is also portraying the greater influence of the gods and older, ancient traditions over her uncles newly appointed power.
3. Why must the dead be buried in this play? Why is burial so important?
ReplyDeleteIt's important in the play because in that Greek culture, in that religion, your soul could not move properly onto the afterlife if your body hasn't had the correct burial rights. And it's important to Antigone because she makes an assertion that she will never have any other brothers (because her parents are dead) so she has to be loyal to them, whatever the cost. (Even if the cost is her own life.) And burial, in general, is important because it is a sign of respect for the deceased. (And for the laws for the gods.)
The chorus is primarily made up of the elderly citizens of Thebes. As a group of the elderly of the population, they together represent many decades of wisdom and experience. They act as overseers and sources of information. They know who is who in the city (shown when they introduce the characters and their brief synopsis of those characters), and what is going on in the city (such as the current laws and the recent war). They are also speaking directly to the audience, helping them analyze the scenes and and present elements of foreshadowing.
ReplyDeleteThe members of the chorus consist of the elders of Thebes and their Leader. They have many important functions in the play – one of which is playing as the narrator. The chorus first enters in line 117 chanting and glorifying Thebes for its recent victory. Not only do they introduce the action and the plot of the play, they also introduce the main characters as seen on line 173 “But look, the king of the realm is coming, Creon, the new man for the new day, whatever the gods are sending now…”
ReplyDeleteThe chorus also serves as an ideal spectator – providing commentary and questions, and giving opinions.
“… what new plan will he launch? Why this, this special session> why this sudden call to the old men summoned at one command? (176-179)” The city is left without a ruler who is a descendant of Oedipus, thus the elders look to Creon for leadership. Also, the chorus foreshadows pivotal events – sets the foundation of what is to come. Lastly and most importantly, the chorus are what I like to call the “smart people” – they tell the audience bits of information that are important and reveal the moral of the story.
-Marcee Dela Cruz
Another example of the history spiral thing (dialectic) would be the history of Mexico, more specifically its government. First Mexico was ruled by Spain (monarchy). Then came the war of independence (that would be the conflict point). But now that Mexico wasn't ruled by the Spanish king, others fought for power (second conflict point), and at the end a dictatorship is established (same concept as monarchy). Followed by the Mexican revolution (another conflict point), then a power struggle, then 40 some-ish years of the same party ruling the country...essentially the same thing over and over.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting to me that Joanna and Monique state the two dialectical sequences we discussed the next day in class... J points to an opposition between "laws of man" and "laws of god"... this opposition simply would not have existed before a certain point in history, since custom, law, and religion all have the same root/origin... you can see that in the Symposium... Plato takes issue with it! Then M points to an opposition between a more primitive notion of religion tied to tribe, and the more modern political entity of the city-state. Again, note the symmetry in the dialectic of Greek religion being both LESS historically advanced than the city-state (local religion) and then MORE historically advanced (universal religion).
ReplyDeleteBut I should say, it takes more than just progression, contradiction, and symmetry in the progression to make a dialectical movement... the synthesis must incorporate BOTH of the prior elements. So Hegel would say the Christianized political state incorporates both the city-state and the universality (thus the later Roman empire). Or he would say that the city-state incorporates some aspect of the earlier tribal order (which we can see in the division of seats in the theater).
About the Chorus... you guys are understanding their dramatic role, but let me also point out the obvious fact that the Chorus is a proxy for the audience of political participants in the stands. The Chorus constitutes the citizenry in miniature. In the original Dionysian ritual, before it became "theater," all there was, was a Chorus. They sang and everyone sang along with them. Then Thespis invented the "actor" (protagonist), Aeschylus added a second actor (antagonist), and Sophocles a third (note how no more than three characters are on stage at any given time).
ReplyDeleteRosa... "the same thing over and over" is a legit thesis about Mexican history, but it's not Hegelian. The dialectic progresses forward, looping back on itself to reincorporate earlier elements, but always becoming something new. I.e. Hegel believes in historical progress. Your theory is what I would call classically conservative ("same old shit")... it's closer to what Sophocles believed, that's for sure.
ReplyDelete