Hey guys, sorry this is coming a little late, but I was on an airplane all night.
HOMEWORK: Finish Sophocles' Antigone (91-128) and also Course Reader 144-48. Hart's SQ #s 9, 11, 12, d.1, d.2 were assigned to different rows. If you don't remember which one to do, or you don't like any of them, try to come up with another version of a dialectical sequence.
KICKOFF: I believe it was Lorena and Alexa, both coming up with a question about some aspect of the reading assignment to ask Laura (the sub).
ABOUT THE HEGEL STUFF: I was getting the sense that some of you were feeling overwhelmed with the Hegel discussion, because I was going so fast through so many ideas. First of all, you can always rely on your swim buddy, and you can always see me in office hours (uh, well not Friday, as I'll be in Connecticut). But let me say also that my main purpose was to put make a kind of framework for stuff we'll be doing later in the course. If it's important, I'll come back to it. Anytime I go on a rant like that, try to grasp onto something you can use rather than trying to memorize everything. As I recall, the three main concepts were:
1) The Antigone legend is subject to various reinterpretations... Robert Fagles translating Sophocles' interpretation into English, for instance. The next one we read is Judith Malina's English translation of Bertold Brecht's reinterpretation of Johan Hölderlin's German translation of Sophocles' interpretation (!).
2) The Antigone legend seems to stage an opposition between ideas that is not only personal but institutional, and not only institutional, but also possibly historical, and here is where Hegelian dialectics are useful in thinking about how that opposition works. Hegelian dialectics is about the progression of the history of the world, which is simultaneously the progression of human consciousness. Hart gave you this sequence:
-Thesis
-Antithesis
-Synthesis
I gave you examples and showed how in this triple structure, the antithesis poses a challenge or conflict to the thesis, and the synthesis overcomes or negates that conflict, also recapitulating the thesis in doing so. Thus for instance:
-Tribal herding Athens (political unit = family)
-Ancient city Athens (political unit ≠ family, because it integrates many families under one political law)
-Antigone's introduction of universal law (political law is for the entire universe and not just for Athens in particular; an idea that won't be fully developed in Europe until St. Paul)
Or the Marxist structure:
-Feudalism
-Capitalism
-Communism
Or for that matter the Christian structure:
-Eden
-Fall into sin
-Salvation by Christ
Or this one:
-CocaCola
-Pepsi/New Coke
-CocaCola Classic
3) I then went further into Hegel and pointed out the difference between Hegel's theory that history must logically progress in a certain way (there must eventually be an Antigone, or a Dantigone, or a Schmantigone, when the moment is ripe), and Marx's idea that history only progresses when people DO things that force it progress. This will be something we come back to. Another critic of Hegel (Søren Kierkegaard) pointed out that the problem with Hegelian dialectics, and with philosophy more generally, is that it tries to be merely a process of describing oppositions between ideas rather than a true decision or choice between them. And both Kierkegaard and Marx say that you always make a choice, even if you choose to merely sit back and be a philosophical observer. (Which is a choice to do nothing, and thus an act to preserve the status quo.)
4) The stuff about Greek theater history was kind of a footnote. I was just saying that the theater was a political gathering, not just an entertainment event, and that according to Aristotle, the purpose of the extreme sexual or violent content of some of the plays was to get those tribal, irrational emotions out of people's system ("catharsis") so they could get on with having a rationally ordered city. So the theater is often seen as the domain of the irrational (it originates in the cult of Dionysus, the god of intoxication). Like Shakespeare's performances at The Globe in the London red light district. Or you know, like spring break. You went out there in the forest and now you're back in Athens with King Theseus, er, Aaron.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
d.1
ReplyDeleteA lot of the burial practices mentioned in class were similar to ones that my family upholds (pre-burial viewing, after party, and all), but I did have a question about whether cremation was considered a burial practice. I know that in movies cremation was very touching because the remains were sprinkled into something or onto a sentimental area i.e. the ocean, a mountaintop, off a bridge, in a Frisbee, etc.(something you can't readily achieve through burial). My friend practicing Hindu told me that an “open-air” cremation served a religious purpose, a sort of purification and setting the soul free from the body.
12. Since the play involves the clash of two worlds or at least of two viewpoints, it is natural that one would like to come to some sort of conclusion as to who was right or who was wrong or whether there is a third position. Which way do you incline? Can you support either side or can you support both? Or neither? Give your reasons.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I give more compassion to Antigone, I think that overall I both deserve some support as well as condemnation for their actions.
1. When Haemon, Creon's son and Antigone's fiance, seemingly tries to calmly reason with Creon's "royal rights" and "mindless judgement", Creon refuses to listen to any sort of his judgement and advice and instead is blindly defending himself and his potential actions. He seems to be more consumed with anger that his son has shown him a differing viewpoint. However, I think that Antigone is not exempt from this same blindness that seems to overcome Creon. She distastefully verbally abuses her sister for not joining her in her own decision to bury her brother and in the end will not allow her to take punishment, or praise?, from her actions. For risking her life for family, she seems all to quick to break familial ties with her sister and also seems to be consumed by her previous bitterness towards her sister's unwillingness to help her.
2. But both Creon and Antigone go to great lengths to stand up for their beliefs, however wrong or right. Both defending the laws that they abide by.
(I don't know why I give more compassion to Antigone though...hmm?)
ReplyDelete9. How do you evaluate Antigone’s treatment of Ismene? Why won’t she let Ismene join her in death?
ReplyDeleteAntigone treats Ismene with contempt because Ismene's fear of the law surpasses her willingness to give her brother a proper burial. However, Ismene openly accepts all consequences placed on Antigone, only when she knows that her fate is sealed.
Antigone won't let Ismene join her in death because she knows that Ismene originally made it clear that she holds the power of the law above anything else. Ismene said, "I must obey the ones who stand in power. Why rush to extremes? It's madness, madness"(79-81). However, when Antigone is sentenced to death for defending her beloved brother, Ismene is too readily eager to be sentenced to death as well. Antigone says, "I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone"(612).Antigone feels that Ismene only wants the honor that comes from defending one's family, but is too cowardly to take part in Polynices' burial.
While in lecture, Professor Hart pointed out something interesting that I did not quite agree with. In her interpretation, she says that Antigone is very unkind to her sister and suggested that she does not like her sister for not originally wanting to help in the burial of Polynices. However, I interpreted as Antigone only acting unkind to her sister in order to protect her. Antigone originally asked Ismene if she wanted to help her in the burial. After rejecting her sister, Antigone calmly understood Ismene's reasons of not wanting to join. Respecting her decision, she goes ahead and buries the body. As she is caught soon after, Antigone starts to be really mean to her sister, I think in an attempt to stop Ismene from also getting punished and potentially getting executed. Antigone did say she would go to great lengths for her brother, because a brother could never be regenerated like a child or husband. Well, a sister can not be regenerated since their parents are dead. I don't think Antigone wants Ismene to suffer same fate as her and her brother. What do you guys think?
ReplyDeleteD2
ReplyDeleteOne of the current issues where both sides of the argument seem right is the question whether to have universal healthcare or not. While the implementation of Universal healthcare would establish equality amongst the services that most people provided with, it would also result in division of hospitals as government and private hospitals. The government hospitals would probably become substandard. However, without universal healthcare many people would remain without affordable medical insurance and therefore not be able to access any kind of medical attention.
Another example of the history spiral thing (dialectic) would be the history of Mexico, more specifically its government. First Mexico was ruled by Spain (monarchy). Then came the war of independence (that would be the conflict point). But now that Mexico wasn't ruled by the Spanish king, others fought for power (second conflict point), and at the end a dictatorship is established (same concept as monarchy). Followed by the Mexican revolution (another conflict point), then a power struggle, then 40 some-ish years of the same party ruling the country...essentially the same thing over and over.
ReplyDeleteWhen my grandpa died about two and a half years ago, we held the service at a Buddhist temple in LA. It was a two day kind of thing. My parents, aunts and uncles, and older cousins wore white traditional funeral robes; the color white is supposed to be associated with death. The rest of us wore a white band on our arm. The first day consisted of chants by the priests, visitations from friends and distant family, and food prepared by the temple. Towards the end of the service everyone took the sides of a strip of cloth (which symbolized a road/pathway) with my grandpa's name plate and picture at the opposite end of the alter. The priests start chanting and my grandpa "walks" over the afterlife as he moves closer to his place at the alter. And there's a bunch of incense and burning of fake money so he can be rich in his afterlife.
ReplyDeleteoops. I forgot to say that I had Discovery Question 1.
ReplyDeleted.2
ReplyDeleteAnother spiral example. The only one that I can completely understand and think I can explain is the Converse shoe example (whom my previous TA explained under different context). Converse shoes were at their peak during the 80s. Then SKECHERS came and all of a sudden, they were the cool shoes to have! Therefore they became the contradiction to Converse shoes. So Nike, the company who owns Converse, came out with Air Jordan's. And eventually it reverted back to the 'classic' Converse which are really popular nowadays.
9. How do you evaluate Antigone’s treatment of Ismene? Why won’t she let Ismene join her in death?
ReplyDeleteAntigone’s treatment of Ismene is very fair. She understands her younger sister’s unwillingness to dishonor the law and defy the city, but she is strong about her own will to honor the gods instead. She doesn’t want her sister to fear for her because she knows the consequence is death, which she thinks will be a glory, but she wants Ismene to “set [her] own life in order.” (63) Antigone won’t let Ismene join her in death because Ismene didn’t do anything and was unwilling. Antigone tells her, “Never share my dying, don’t lay claim to what you never touched.” (87)
d.1) I was raised in a Hispanic Catholic family. I am not Catholic, but I attend feunerals and burial practices of family and friends. In Catholic tradition, a service mass is held for the deceased, where all the family and loved ones go to mourn the dead person. People go dressed in black or of a color requested by the family or the deceased. The funeral can be either open- or closed-casket.
ReplyDeleteIn the Hispanic culture, in my experience, there is generally a party afterwards, which is sometimes called the "celebration of so-and-so's life." At this party, there is a lot of food, maybe a slideshow, and alcohol. The alcohol drunk by people to forget the pain, or it can be used to toast to the persons life; in all 3 feunerals i have attended as a teenager, i have witnessed that poeple drink heavily to the deceased, and remember the good times they shared. I think that celebrating a person's life instead of mourning their death is a much healthier way to cope with the loss because it really shows how one is blessed with good friends and family.
I posted my answer the the reading question on the previous post... just making sure you know that I did it. :)
ReplyDelete-Annie Ditta
Discussion Question #1
ReplyDeleteI am SIKH and in my religion, we are to cremate a dead body. Like most other religions, a proper burial shows respect for the individual who has died. People come dressed in white to the funeral and afterwards, everyone gathers at a temple where the family of the deceased provides food (langar) to all the attending guests. The family must also remain a vegetarian for the next 45 days and not attend any festivals or occasions. Personally, I feel that the reasoning behind “suffering with the dead” is more of a social presentation. The family must “show” that they are in remorse and create a sad environment within their household for at least 45 days so that people of that society give the family some empathy and respect. After the body is cremated and only the ashes remain, the family disposes those remains in a nearby river, symbolizing a flow of life. A proper burial is necessary because it gets rid of a dead body in a more efficient and pleasant manner rather than having it further suffer and decompose at a slow rate.
9. How do you evaluate Antigone’s treatment of Ismene? Why won’t she let Ismene join her in death?
ReplyDeleteAntigone is disappointed with her sister, but also respects her decision. But this respect is a strict respect, or a very delineated separation of the two sisters. Antigone respects her sister's decision to remain loyal to the state, but believes that Ismene should remain loyal to that decision similar to how Antigone is loyal to her family. That is why later, when Ismene asks Antigone if she can join her in death, Antigone rejects her. Antigone treats her sister with contempt because she believes Ismene's loyalty to be false, comparable to what we call "bandwagoning" today.
Study Question 11:
ReplyDelete-Antigone believes that you can get another husband and you can bear another child but a brother only comes along once because you weren’t the one who chose him or gave birth to him, it was your parents who brought him into the world. This is consistent with what she says and does in the play because she is very goal oriented about honoring her only brother’s death. I think that they were part of the play because it shows her mindset and how she came to believe that her brother was the only one worth fighting for at the moment.
:( where did my answer go? i posted it after calanis on wednesday morning
ReplyDeleteRoselaine... cremation means different things depending on who's doing it, as you see. I just learned that the Catholic church recently authorized cremation (if I'm remembering correctly... does anyone know anything about that?) Priya's point is a great one, that many religious customs have a practical basis (like sanitation)... as far as I understand it this is the actual origin of most of the Jewish kosher laws
ReplyDeleteAnnie... I saw it
Aubrey... try again maybe
Rosa & Christine... my response is on the previous post
Ankita... there was a movie with Denzel Washington about 15 years ago when Hillary Clinton was trying to get universal healthcare that was the perfect Antigone for that particular moment... Denzel holds up a hospital emergency room with a gun and forces them to perform open heart surgery on his uninsured son
Monique... I may have opened a Pandora's box here with my Coke example... Christine's Nintendo example is much better than both of ours, because the Wii incorporates BOTH the kiddy-ness of the original Nintendo AND the advanced graphics capability of the Playstations (to a degree). It does have to be a synthesis according to Hegel; it can't just be a random sequence... you're doing more of a Gladwell analysis.
11.
ReplyDeletea) Defying the state’s laws, set by Creon, Antigone claims that burying a sibling is more important than burying a child or husband. This stems from what professor Hart explained on how for the Greek society, and especially Antigone’s family, blood is the most important factor in determining relationship status. In this case Antigone’s brother is closer in blood than either a child or a husband, since a husband would be of little or no blood relation and a child would be of mixed blood relation. Although not consistent of today’s society, these blood ties are the defining point in familial relationships. Antigone also brings up the point that a husband or child can be replaced; but a brother can not because her mother and father are already deceased.
b) Goethe hoped that scholars would discover that this section was false. I don’t agree with Goethe on this view, because these lines show that Antigone buries Polynices for more than just familial ties. It shows that Antigone is part of the community as well as her family and the gods.
11. P.105. a) Lines 995-1004, in which Antigone explains that she would only have defied the edict to bury a brother, not for a husband or child, have baffled readers and spectators for centuries. What is Antigone saying and how is it consistent or inconsistent with what she says and does in the play? Can a true representative of kinship issues assert that she would not bury a husband or child?
ReplyDeleteb) Goethe said that he hoped that scholars would someday discover that these lines were not part of the play. Do you share his sentiments? Why or why not?
Antigone says this to justify her actions when she buried her brother. She believes that if she ever lost a child or husband, it would not be as horrific as losing a brother because she could easily remarry and bare another child. However, a brother cannot be replaced especially given the fact that both their mother and father are deceased. As for Goethe's sentiments, I cannot say I agree. These lines help to depict that Antigone is not purely driven by familial loyalties and that she also values the community and the gods.